channels. i right. ben the past brief just so you can either find them on or the hhs youtube channel and please if you have seriously if you have ideas just for congressional if there are things that you think that your colleagues would like to know are info at historic ins talk just send it to that there or catch me afterwards ben and let us know. we are happy to try to organize a briefing on that topic so. thank you all for coming. so good evening, everyone. i'm carrie coogan, deputy

director for the kansas city public library in kansas city, missouri. thank you all so much for being here tonight or too long. the santa fe trail's history has focused on the men who traveled it but in crossings women on the santa fe trail historian dr. frances levine brings to light the traders, adventurers and, cultural intermediaries who played a vital roles in its legacy. her work challenges the stereotype of women as reluctant travelers, showing how they shaped commerce and along the route, dr. levine's career has connected the histories of both missouri and mexico to key points. the trail through her leadership at the missouri historical society and the new mexico history museum. we are so honored to have her here today to share these remarkable stories. please join me in dr. frances levine. thank you.

thank you so much. you know, you're a very group. and i think you also figured out why march was the least favorite time for santa fe trail traders to go west or east. so with your permission, i'd like to take a picture of. this very brave group, because you braved the blizzard predictions. and i did. i came on the train and now i know why people love having the train. i'm going to start reading something from the preface of my book because. then it just gets the biographical details out of the way very quickly. in the winter of 2014, i changed jobs and moved from santa fe, new mexico, to saint louis, missouri. i joked that i simply put my car

in reverse and traveled eastward on the santa fe trail the route that had joined this places two centuries ago. early in my career, i worked as an archeologist, as no historian, studying historical sites and evidence of cultural change. i had or studied, artifacts from several archeological sites in and around santa fe that contained deposits from the era and before the arrival of the railroad, which led to even more changes. technology and demographics for new mexicans, the santa fe trail had a profound impact on the variety and quantity of goods. after from new mexico to missouri, i began to understand the direction actions between the families and businesses at both ends of the trail, focusing on women's experience. voices on the trail allowed me to explore the complexity, depth

and the links between the south west and the american heartland. i was able to see the evolution of women's roles in integration of travel and intercultural women were to the western experience and told through their own words the story of the santa fe trail is much more than the march of manifest destiny and the rise of commercial enterprises. i approached this book from my perspective as a museum director and and a museum professional and thought of it as a i think of it as a curator edited collections of stories. early on i thought, i'm going to write about every woman who was ever on the santa fe trail well, that, of course, was hubris. and i, i began to really starting to think, how could i organize what were the organizing principles? and, you know, when you do an

exhibition you start with several things. what are the strengths of your collection? what are the artifacts that you can deal with? what are the documents, photographs we call the assets? what are the cultural that you can work with? so this book is a collection, but start with just a little background of what the santa fe trail is and was, although suspect that everybody in this has been in a restaurant had a placemat that shows you where the santa fe trail was right you know that map so the set of they trail began long before the date that we usually talk about we usually that the trade was opened in 1821 the tween new mexico mexico and the u.s. but it's a trade with a much longer spanning the trade fairs and intercultural interregional

exchanges between native peoples of the southwest and native peoples of the midwest. it's also tied to the global reach of spanish and french enterprises. but in missouri, the trail resuscitate the economy here after the collapse of 1891. and it happened almost simultaneously with mexico's declaration of independence from. and so we're going to talk a couple of the women who spanned that period of time, st louis supplied capital and manufactured goods for distribution west and south to xicond new mexico cash you've probably also heard the story that when william bucknell returned from new mexico in the fall of 1821, that he tore open the seam on the buckskin and the

silver rail clattered to the ground on the cobblestone arms. and everybody knew there was a fortune be made that might have happened. but new mexico contributed so much more. it contributed cash hides, furs, mules and other livestock. but importantly, we'll see, when i bring up the map in a minute that it was the nexus between, the westward expanding united states and the northern thrust mexico. and by 1839 it really by about 1829 the draw of the santa fe trail was further south santa fe and further west santa fe. so let's a look at this map. i once said to a friend of mine who's a great trail scholar, where does this trail start? and where does it end? because i that the trail starts in louis and ends in mexico. and he said the trail starts

where you get on and ends where you get off of it. but i like my definition for precision. so usually we hear that the trail in independence or franklin and goes across and crosses missouri part of missouri kansas, colorado part oklahoma texas would like trail to have crossed it, but it never into new mexico. and then here in santa fe it joined the camino real de tierra adentro and went all the way down to mexico city and from mexico city. the trail linked the spanish trade into the gulf of mexico down into havana and, that across all the way to the pacific as well. santa fe was also the nexus of trail to california and

independence area was the nexus of the trail to the northwest. so i think it's important to recognize that we can't confine trail just to kansas and missouri new mexico that had a much greater and much more important reach. this is a kind of detail of way in which the camino real tierra dentro came from santa fe down through el paso, juarez through chihuahua down to a puddle, and to durango, and then in mexico city, the there was the link to was the spanish galleon with entering through that across and exiting back acapulco.

the this picture this photograph on the right is actual stretch of the camino real de tierra dentro right outside of santa fe between, santa fe and albuquerque. and i get so excited when i pass that time. i drive north or south i 25 i think about the age that cut in the land and when i moved to to saint louis, i was hoping that i was going to find a similar of trail. right now my that didn't happen either. i've had a series of disappointments but it's led to a much deeper understanding so my my statement that i think the santa fe trail starts in saint louis is really tied to this 1853 photograph. it's a dagger type done by thomas easterly and it shows

wagons and boxes and bales and furniture piled up along the in saint louis, there are very, very interest ing maps and photographs of the levee. well, the quanta of goods that came across the was quite remarkable. all those of you from kansas city who have been to the steamship arabia museum, how many of you have done that? what a fabulous fabulous museum. and really shows you the the depth and variety goods that were carried west from saint louis and, from the kansas city area and independence. so it's these pairs of photographs, this photo on the on your right is one of the earliest photos of the palace of the governors in santa fe. it doesn't look much like that anymore if you've been there, but this is before it got its

victorian facade, before it got its many times makeover. but this is the earliest photograph taken in october of 1861 of the amberg and ellsworth wagon train getting ready, unload all of that material such as you've seen at the steamship. and it was loaded on and off the the wharves the of saint louis. so my research, when i first got here, i told you i went out looking for a cut in the road like i had seen in new and i didn't find. but i found so much. i went first probably within first month of moving here in spring of 2014. i came independence. i walked this the ruins of the trail around franklin. but i was looking for much more.

and then i to the little town of arrow rock. and there i actually saw trail ruts. and there i could really begin to get feel of the camino excuse me, of the of the santa fe trail. but i wanted something else. i wanted to an organizing principle for what i wanted to write about. santa fe trail the santa fe trail has a bibliography that's almost 200 years old and so i kept wondering what i could pass say about it. and then like one of my other books, i've written this is my fifth book and. almost every one of my books have come from a question that was raised by a footnote. now i believe there are only two types of people in the world. you're either read footnotes or don't. i love footnotes, and it was in

the footnote of josiah gregg's book of the prairies that i wrote about a woman who was well known to santa fe trail traders. she had been abducted by the comanches from the town of taos in august of 1768. she had been traded from the comanche use to the ponies. and then she was purchased by one of the first settlers of saint louis and her was maria rosa field. bond of sally did latour that will be on the test. i'm not to talk a lot about my real rosa because she demands full hour to understand experience. but it was really about her in the footnote of gregg's book, which was in about 1839, and he talked about this woman, he gave her a slightly name. and so she was well known to

santa fe trail travelers for telling her tale of woe. well, i to know what that tale of woe was. and as i started looking for what i was going to write about, once i got over the idea that i was going to write about every woman who ever was on santa fe trail i started at what was in the collections, the missouri historical society, where i was president and what was in the collection of new mexico history museum palace of the governors. and what was the ground? right where i live in saint louis and of course, shelby mcgovern's great at bill fenton cemetery along with many other graves associated with the santa fe trail finding women in history is a little bit like doing an archeology excavation. women their names through time on their cultures. it's one thing i love about doing research spanish is that

women keep their family name associated their married name, so it makes it a little easier to track them, but it can be very difficult because their names change, it was nearly to find information about african-american native american women and hispanic women. and except in the case of of means, it's to find a diary or a journal. but i did manage to find quite a bit of evidence begin to put it to put the stories together and began to understand just how much women acted as cultural, the way in which they created families from marriages, with missouri family and new mexican family with missouri families and native families and they were crucial to the many the

many of the inter families of 19th century north. we don't talk about that much. and part of that has been kind of historiography until very recently. we thought the united states as a melting pot where everybody became american and lost some of that cultural identity. but we know now from new methods in history that that important to look at those family histories and to begin to unpack them now women often have to be traced through the actions of their fathers, their brothers, their husbands. and so and then we have to kind of interpolate who were and how their story meshes. one of the things that was very obvious in researching women women's lives were the benefit of cross-cultural marriages. and missouri traders, i said,

took wives in community in french and native american communities. they created kinship. and from those networks they created opportunities for, trade opportunities for and french and american traders met new mexicans and mexican people long before the countries went to war. and it was those family connections, those business connections that began to build the middle, both ends of the santa fe trail. so the first woman that i want to tell you about now i'm not going to tell you about maria rosa. you have to read that in the book because we don't have time for her to get her full hour. but i would come back to talk about her. we're going to talk first about maria de la luce. carmen benavides, also known as, kamel robredo. and you see, this is, kamel roba, this is kamel kamel

benevides baptismal record from the church in santa fe. kamel benevides was, a member of an extremely important mexican family, one that had been there since very early in the 17th century. she was baptized as a two day old on november 22nd, 1811, and her roots go back deep into and mexican history. her story has particular clear resonance. it in tracing the opportunities and challenge of cross-cultural relationships. i'm assuming that many you have been to santa fe and so her the house that she lived in is on palace avenue. it's a property that became 109 east palace where of you may know was office of the manhattan

during world two. but that property which belonged to diego arias to quiros, was built in the 17th century. and maria maria de la luce's family went went through a series of of inheritances of different of that house in many colonial properties in new mexico. the roof is left to one child. the windows are left to another child. the viegas in half the room is left to another child. well, what's the point of that? the point of that is the family has to get along in order for that property, be useful and functional. so, maria, i'm going to call carmel from now on because that's how she mostly shows up in the documents. carmel inherited a piece of that property from her mother's family and. we don't have a of carmel.

we don't have a word written in carmel's own hand, but we do have a description of her that was written in 1924, long after she died, but tell you what this man said about her. he said, there is not youth within a radius of 50 miles of santa fe, but have braved the very jaws of death for a smile of the fair or a glance of the dark eyes that shown with the splendor of the stars that twinkle the southern firmament. you get the picture. but nevertheless, she was evidently a beautiful woman. well year that she was born, the year after she was born her uncle was by a draw of straws to go to spain to tell the king of spain at the car the at the quarters of these what new mexico needed. new mexico was part of spain.

from 1598 to 1821. but toward the of that reign, it was really strapped for resources. so her uncle pedro battista, pino was sent from mexico to mexico to tell spain what they needed and what he said is that there was an insufficiency of military might, that there was a chronic shortage of arms and soldiers that the that new mexico was preyed on by nomadic tribes that there were no schools and there was no trade that there were no markets to speak of and no ways of apprenticing. his list of needs compelling. and he warned that if spain didn't step up their protection of new mexico that new mexico would fall to the americans.

well first it mexico declared its independence from spain and carmel began to bring up the next i found carmel in so many different of documents in a bill of sale at a store in a baptismal record in census record from buchanan county here in missouri. and i found here where is listed as maria carmel benevides and she is the wife of antoine robledo. so this is when she's 29, when she ten years old carmel, was on the plaza in santa fe when mexico declared its independence from spain. and the other people who were on plaza that day were also mussoorie traders. william beck.

now had already left new mexico, but thomas james was on the santa fe plaza and he claims to have been the one to tell the the last spanish governor how to raise the flag to deploy to over the santa fe plaza to declare independence from spain. this a very moment in the history of north america. it's the moment when joined new mexico and when was now permitted before mexico assumed control of mexico when it was all under spain? the camino real was the only that trade goods got north south train spain had very strong protection policies about trade. so the traders like bicknell and thomas james, who came in to santa fe in the fall of 1821 and saw this moment of independence, were witnessing a rather

remarkable sight. so thomas james, a raucous scene on, the santa fe plaza on january six, 1822, when the flag of mexico was over santa fe and, the flag of spain came down. as the flag went up, the fired in the men and women for all quarters of the city came running, some half dressed to the public square, which soon filled with the population, the city, the people of the surrounding country came in, and for five days the square was covered with spaniards and indians from every part of the province. during this whole time, the city exhibited a sense of universal carousing and revelry. all classes abandoned themselves to the most reckless dissipation and profligacy men, women and children crowded every of the city, and the carousel was kept up day and night tables for gambling, surrounded the square and continually occupied

attention of crowds, dyce and faro. banks were all the time in constant play. so that was also the scene that opened the trade between the west edge of the and the northern edge of mexico. karmal was ten years old at time, and seven years later she would take up with robledo. antoine is a trader who came from flora, new mexico. florissant, missouri and he was the third of six sons and two daughters born to joseph roberto and his wife, catherine merola. he was born in 1794 in the area of florissant, and he began to with his brothers, to serve as traders to new mexico and also to the great basin. in 1826, they were already well established in mexico when his.

louis a common law wife, guadalupe garcia, and went antoine began to take up. with carmel. this is antoine. roberto. and he and his brother appear before the governor of new mexico in 1829 and declared that they had become part of new mexican families. and by that right. they were now allowed to and to trap and to trade, to own land distant from that that was reserved for new mexican families. so it's one of those cross-cultural male marriages that was extremely profitable and important. it's sometimes said that carmel never antoine and. my thinking about that is it

doesn't really matter because when he wrote his in 1860 which this is a copy of he dedicated everything he had to his darling wife, to his devoted wife. my letter, carmel affection name for carmel and carmel and antoine made many trips across the santa fe trail from new mexico, missouri and back again. antoine and his brothers also very widely across the intermountain west and it's really hard to tell sometimes whether antoine is with carmel, whether carmel is alone and to who was trading where. i'm just going to talk about this barrel shotgun for a minute because i was very excited when i found that in the in of the soldiers memorial st louis and i was because was that double

barrel shotgun was said to have belonged to antoine roberto and that he received it in the battle of san possible. well then i found some other notes it said that it actually belonged to buffalo bill and then i saw some other notes said it belonged to kit carson and had been presented to him by john fremont. and so what i decided is that gun got around, but i'm actually sure if it was antoine roberto's it's it's a great story about about that roberto and carmel stayed in santa fe where he became prominent in worked in the town council. he also was very much involved in trade throughout the west. but in the fall of 1844, he very abandoned santa fe after a raid on the palace of the governor's very well document, he was

blamed for supply ing arms to the youths. that's not at all clear, but his trapping and trading business in the great basin had collapsed. there was. there was a lot of political difficulty in that early period time in new mexico politics. he came back to missouri, came back to saint joseph, missouri, where brother joseph had founded joseph. but in june of 1846, he to ups don't get ahead of yourself he wrote to stephen what's corny who was commanding the army of the west and he offered his services an interpreter carney accepted and rabideau joined him in the march of the army of the west from missouri to new mexico, and it was on the roof of this building in las vegas,

new mexico. he issued one of the first oaths of allegiance when americans took the southwest in the summer of 1846. he also gave that oath of allegiance in santa fe, where he must have been looking at group of his wife's family, where he looked at people he had been involved with. and i often wonder what that moment was like for him and for carmel to. know that her husband was delivering ancestral home into the hands of americans. well, where was carmel we don't have a record of where carmel is as i said made six or eight crossings of the santa trail in the 1860s when he died when carmel when antoine died in the in the summer of 1860, she was with a niece and some other family members in saint joseph.

but shortly after that she returned to new mexico to that house that we now call 109 east palace, she sold that house to a to the governor of new mexico, and she went to live with her grand and her granddaughter's husband on the frontier in southern colorado. we don't have a single word about her. and when she sold that beautiful property, she signed with an x. we're going to talk about another woman who was in the army, the west in the summer of 1846. but first, we have to talk about miss drumm and don't ever call her stella. her name was miss drome. stella drumm served the librarian for the missouri historical society from. 1913 to 1943, and when i came to work at missouri historic

society, my office was right in this area where she had edited the diary of susan shelby magoffin. and when i walked in there, i said, i need to read her correspondence because she did something she don't did that diary not to the archives at missouri historical society but she donated that to yale university because was mad at missouri historical society. so i got mad at her and i went to yale and. a lot of the documents are sealed until many years after all of us will be long. but she so miss drumm was a was a force of nature this issue. but she is responsible putting together a fantastic archive at the missouri historic society and she translate she did a lot of the editing of susan shelby mcgovern's diary many of you

have now have probably read that it's called the old santa fe trail into mexico and it covers the period from june 11th, 1846 to september 1847, when susan on the trail with her husband who was samuel magoffin, a very wealthy family from, kentucky, and they in the party of the army of the west that marched from fort leavenworth to santa fe to take to an the united states. susan traveled like a princess and she talks about that she talks about the tent that her husband set up for her every night and. how if it was rainy like tonight, he would carry her from the carriage to the tent and he would have set up a table with champagne and oysters and she

had this traveling that took care of her. she also had a had an african-american servant named jane and we don't have a photograph of jane. we don't have a single picture jane. but i decided i wanted to know a lot more about jane than i wanted to know about susan, because much is written about susan. susan claimed to be the first woman to have crossed the santa fe trail. she wasn't. she claimed to be the first american woman to cross the santa fe trail she probably wasn't, but she was the only who was embedded with the army of the west and who had a that she kept every day. and i love reading it, but i love to pick on susan and her pretense. but i decided i wanted to know more about jane and jane, as i say, does not speak in her own voice anyway, in the journal. but susan writes about their

companionable time on, the trail, the way they would tip wildflower is the way they would walk and explore on some days. and that if susan didn't want to walk the trail hands would flowers and bring them to her. but she didn't say they'd do that for jane. what? susan talks a lot. they arrived in santa fe in july of 1846. she had suffered miscarriage at ben's fort in colorado she. so she wasn't in santa fe the day the army of west arrived. but she arrived a few weeks later, and then she settled santa fe for several months. and she loved santa fe. she loved observing life in santa fe. she had a lot to say about women's. she had a lot to say about the way they wear their makeup, their hair was kind of a little

observation about women in the far west, but it was still a fairly interesting journal read. but i wanted to know about that relationship that she with susan and between susan and jane. and so i thought it was really important to to talk about her susan's diary as she leaves santa fe and begins to head toward mexican front because she and her husband are going to go all the way down the santa trail, connect to the camino real, and go into northern mexico with the army of the west susan becomes apprehensive. she is hearing stories. her husband has a wife in mexico she's to hear stories that they might be murdered by new mexicans or mexican people. on the trail. she's beginning to hear that her brother in law who is the head of the caravan may have been murdered. so she's very aware of her

apprehension and. jane begins to drink and susan begins to talk about the need to beat her enslaved servant and the way in which she has to handle her so that she remember bears her place. it's a little disturbing to read. but susan was raised that way to believe that that was her duty. she talks about never wanting to tell that to her husband that he would expect that she had handled the servants. i love this jesse boyle print of of saint louis of the levee in that he did in the 1840s again showing the lines of the of the of the steamships showing people working the levee the african-american moving trails moving handcarts loading wagons

the native american people, walking town, the customs house with its with its dining room. and susan come doesn't stop in saint louis but her journal really allows to begin to ask the question how could so much of the trade have involved african-american people and so little memory of them is contained in the documents. and so one of the chapters of my book really to look at what do we know about african-american women on the trail and what do we know about the way in which traders themselves saw, african-american people on the trail? there's some pretty fab us, an astute considerations, the impact of slavery on on that period of and place in american history. we're going to switch to talking

about the next group of people who come once the americans are here once the americans have asserted control of the santa fe trail and have begun to build forts. so after 1846, the number of people traveling the trail increases substantially and we begin to get a series of people who come the trail for their health. one of these was kate kingsbury. another is james ross and he talks about the way in which the pure air of the prairie. remember, these are people who have mostly out of they have come out of industrial. they're telling me i have to start wrapping up. oh, no, don't. okay. thank you. so people came to the trail also so that they restore their health. well kate kingsbury was one such woman who came on the trail in

the summer, first of 1853, and there's a series correspondence between her brother and her husband. when i was a graduate at smu, we had that library about a thousand letters that were and business correspondence between her brother and her husband, who were partners. and then when i got to the missouri historical society, we had another several hundred letters were there. and among the letters that we have in the missouri historical society was document this is kate's gravestone. kate died on the santa fe trail santa fe trail. kate died on the santa fe trail on june 5th, 1857, and we have this letter that her husband wrote ordering her gravestone in the missouri historical society in santa fe. i have been photographing that gravestone for probably 20

years. and so finding the bits and pieces from. my time as a graduate student and then from my work at missouri archive and then back the santa fe trail. going to read you what i think is one of the most sublime moments. again, we have nothing in in katie and we have reference this in the letter her husband and her brother describe very very detailed assessed hints of her health. and then there's letters between her brother and another business partner saying that her husband is really understanding just how seriously ill she is. so he takes her back to canada to connecticut and massachusetts, to her family, and he takes her to saint, loads up 30 wagons and starts across and is at independence that load the wagons and start across makes it to the crossing of the

arkansas river in june and this is the last night of her life and it's the first time we have her own words. this was recorded the newspaper and came from an interview with her sister, mrs. kingsbury at no time in improved health on the whole route she urged her husband and sister take all care and persevere in trying to save her. and then just after midnight, she seemed to realize that the end was close. she said, is it possible, that i have come this far in my trip and i now must take leave of you. she then commended with composure and took leave her sister and john. she to assure them that the course they had pursued was in every respect to her satisfaction and, asked forgiveness for every harsh expression or unkind word that passed her during her illness. she her every wish had been complied with and everything in

the power of man had been done promote her comfort. and now said, if my heavenly father has sent for me, i am ready to i leave myself in his having the fullest confidence in his justice and mercy. don't regret or grieve the step you have taken. i have taken leave with everything i have got everything. me? oh, she said, i'm very tired. and now let me go to sleep. so what a thing to have persevered through two trips across the trail, and then to die on the very trail. well, i'm going to begin to wrap up by talking about a couple of the women who came across the trail on train between 1860 and about 1879, 1880, the trail begins to shorten as the railroad begins to cross the country. and when i came across on the train today, i came on the train

from saint louis. i was thinking about how comfortable it was for me was so much better than driving. it was so much better than flying. and all i could think back on was the women who talked about that when they came across the santa fe trail they talked about how beautiful was, how the nights were beautiful, the wildflowers beautiful. and yes, they endured terrible conditions at times. susan wallace this is not wallace. this is flora flora langerman. spiegel burke also writes about her crossing the trail, and i talk about her in the book susan wallace writes about the end of the trail and she talks about coming across the train and she talks about the how awful it was. and this is something that's the saint louis city and northern great line was built for women's comfort. and susan wallace talks about the bedbug bugs, the wailing

children, the screaming mothers, the con men and the terrible food that accompanied her across. the trail when she finally got so she crossed the trail on the train in about ten days. what had taken other women 20, 30 days or more and she complained and then when she got she did the last two nights of her trip. raton, new into santa fe. she thought it was just that she was going to be shaken to death by the buckboard. but believe me, she had it pretty good and i felt that way today when. i came across on the train. i thought it was marvelous. so i want thank so many people who helped me pull of this together. i'm so to the library for allowing me to be with you tonight. i hope that you will read the book and and enjoy it and.

i would be happy to come back another time and talk about some of the other women, the trail. but i think i can take questions. but you have to come up to the mikes because can't we're being recorded by c-span. i think you know that. and in order for your questions and my answers to be heard, you have to speak the mic. are the mikes on? yes, the mikes are on. so i don't know if you know this to this, but approximate how many women did die on the trail and then conversely, how many children may have been born the year on the trail. well i can't give you an actual number. i can tell you about some of the notable deaths. of course kingsbury is one and another were some of the sisters of loretto who cross the trail. they coming across with archbishop lemay and died of.

do i mean malaria dwain some of them had consumption and some of them, you know, the trail itself was a vector of disease. and one of the things in all the guides about to establish a camp was to be careful where not to camp, to near water sources, not to pollute water sources, to get malaria. there's a lot in the book and a lot that has been written about health on the santa fe trail yes there were born on the trail. there were children on both kate kingsbury and her husband's business partner's wife. both of them were pregnant on the trail. but of course they don't ever say that the children miraculously occur several months after off the trail, these two children are born and start doing the finger counting and saying oh, wait, you know,

they were conceived on the on the trail and born after they got to santa fe. but i don't have actual numbers. i'm not sure that we would kind of ever know that. dr. livingston, can i ask one question. i'm giving you somebody up there. yes. the era is kind of having a moment right now in fiction, in television. and i'm wondering if you're seeing that reflected in the interest in your research. the era of the santa fe trail. yes. you know, when i growing up, i grew up in the era of american, i was in love with john wayne, for example i still am most of the time. and yes, i this book has had a very, very popular start. and i it is because we almost long for that kind of story and we are looking for those stories

of women and children on the trail. i have one chapter completely given over to the and so when i organized the book. i told you i did it as i were doing an exhibit. so there is a section on women in captivity, women being bartered themselves being bartered and traded on the trail. i did a section on children and a number of children who were born in new mexico were brought to missouri because new mexico no schools. so they were brought either to to independence they were brought saint louis to be educated for a long period of time. new mexico have public schools until very, very, very late so they were that a lot boys were brought across trail as children and they were taken to saint louis university and raised there.

girls were taken to visitation academy and to the of the sacred heart and saint joseph's so children quite young came across. now they must have come across with caretakers a number of fathers brought their children over here when their wives died. kit carson brought his daughter adeline and he brought her from new mexico. she was born to an arapaho mother probably on the green river, and then he brought her to. and then when her mother died, likely as a result of the birth of her second child, she was brought missouri be raised by carson's family. there was another young woman who was born in santa fe, francisco lopez to kimball and was brought to saint louis when she was about nine years old, because her mother had died and her father brought his sons to

independence and then his daughter went to saint louis. and she writes and i have the letters in the book she wrote, the most heartbreaking requests that he come and see her and that he bring her brothers. she was her father died probably. he got some of those letters and just heartbreaking stories about children, but a lot now i wrote a lot of this book during the pandemic. and i had never thought children having to be relocated so much because of the death of a parent or the death of both parents. so it was very resonant when i did that case. do you have a question? yeah, thank you. i'm i'm a little confused about the status of new mexico. and new mexico was i mean, you said it taken over from mexico. it wasn't mexico who did it have

its own was it its own polity? well, let me ask a person with an interest in politics. i would say so. new mexico, of course, was occupied by pueblo from the time immemorial. you know, we used to say from the time when the memory of man run is not to the contrary. so new mexico has great antiquity in its archeological and native populations. in 1598, when spain conquered. new mexico, when the spanish came up from mexico, from the from the conquest of tenochtitlan and mexico, they came up the rio grande and claimed new mexico for spain. so new mexico is a colony of spain. from 1598 to 1821. in 18 there was a long of new

mexico. so mexico fighting against spain for its independence so in 1821 that moment that i read you are the flag going up. that was the moment that new mexico learned that they were no longer part of spain but they were now part of the new nation of mexico. so we were part of mexico from 1821 to 1846, when were then annexed by the united states. could 400 years of history in about 10 seconds. another question. we'll take with this one here. oh, the did any women make their journeys by themselves or in groups of other women without men traveling with them?

oh, the short answer no. but like the sisters of loreto came across and the only the only actual drawing of women on the trail, one that i found in the saint louis art museum. and it was of a encampment drawn by an artist on march 23rd, 1857. and there's a woman that drawing and i was able to identify from the artist's journal. mary said she was one he talked about a sister of loreto who gave up new mexico. she just didn't like it and she was on her way back to saint and then kentucky to go back her family. so she traveled with a young mexican girl as her keeper. but all of the maintenance and

management of the wagon train was was done by. men, there's another woman that i write about in this book, the chapter on children named eliza st clair sloane, and she was she was twice widowed or twice left her different husbands and went across the santa fe trail with her two children and she hired on as a cook on the on the wagons commanded by francis. if somebody aubrey that's not his name francis. aubrey she signed on as cook so she went across in the company. i mean nobody went across on their own. you know those that show like tom just did the news of the world right. that movie and there a guy who's traveling across country all alone in a wagon.

he didn't do that. somebody did try to do that. france tuning. and he and his mother in and his brother were brother in law were attacked. she was killed. and then he had to write back to his wife in new mexico and say, your mother and your brother died. and that was because he tried cross alone. but for the most part, women went across. if they went across with their children and they went across alone, they signed on either as cooks or laundress and they had work to do in the actual train itself. thank you so much for joining tonight. thank you all for coming out really. you have a good night.